Dan's side of the story in opening up our marriage
A transcript of our conversation on my new podcast Relating
If you don’t already know, I quit my old podcast of 5 years last year and thought I was done with podcasting. But then I realized I just wanted to do a podcast where I never edited anything and just blabbered on about relating and without any particular publishing schedule.
So I started a new podcast called Relating a few months ago, and I’ve been publishing episodes sporadically. No editing whatsoever because I literally don’t know how to edit audio, and I kind of like keeping it that way.
And I’ve been having the most fun.
Recently, I had the strongest desire to get Dan on the podcast and have a conversation with him in public. The episode itself is available anywhere or on my website: angela-han.com/podcast.
I also decided to share a transcript of the conversation for those of you who prefer reading over listening. (Also, there will be some typos because I did only the lightest of editing from the transcript that was automatically generated from the audio, but I trust that you will get the idea.) Here we go!
Me:
Welcome to another episode of relating. I don't know what number of episode we're on.
Dan:
You're looking at me like I know.
Me:
Anyway, yeah, this is this I'm sitting here with Dan, we were talking about some things like I was asking him because I whenever I talk about stuff about Dan, I always ask for consent. And there are certain things that I wanted to share about our journey. And he had shared that he would actually prefer to talk about it firsthand. And I thought that this was a good place to kind of share space in that way and have a space where we could, or I could hear his story a little bit more from his words. So here we are. Hi.
*laughing my ass off for no reason*
Okay, by the way, you should know that I laugh at everything that Dan does. It's not cause he's funny, but because I love him. And this is an ongoing dispute. He thinks that he is funny, but I don't agree. But that's why I laugh a lot. I laugh a lot, like really, like at a clinical level. So you guys will probably hear me laughing a lot. Might wanna fast forward through those times if it becomes too much.
Dan:
Wow, a lot of effort you put into that disclaimer. I'm sure everyone's convinced. Thoroughly and beyond the doubt.
Me:
Anyway, I think the thing that I was asking you about separately was about your, I guess, I hate this word transformation, but that's the only like…maybe metamorphosis? I don't fucking know.
But you know, we started having this discussion, what is it? It's like May now. So about a year ago, maybe a little over a year ago, about opening up our marriage. And I remember like during those first days, it was kind of very rocky. I remember you being like, my gosh, like hell to the no, I'm wired to be monogamous. I am like, this is never gonna happen. I hate this. Don't talk to me.
And then now you're in love with three people.
*more clinical laughter*
So I wanna hear, I'm sorry. You have to see his face. I wanna hear from your perspective, like how, like this is my story. So like, what's your story about that?
Dan:
I mean, I agree with everything that you've said in broad strokes, like metamorphosis, transformation, journey, like all those very like white people doing yoga type phrases are super duper cliche and kind of corny, but in a way it was. I sat with that idea as you were saying that question and I was like, actually, what is this? What label would I use to describe what happened this past year?
And I think it's more like an unshackling. It's not so much that I changed. It's that I became more of who I am, if that makes sense. It's that I was able to sit down and take a good hard look at my values and notice that many of them that I, you know, I thought that they were core intrinsic, unshakable, unflappable values. But when I actually sat down and looked at them, a lot of them were generational. A lot of them were cultural. A lot of them were extraordinarily toxic and masquerading as these really positive things that I aspire to be.
Chiefly like, you know, what it means to be a good husband, right? I internalize a lot of stuff my dad said about what it means to be a good husband. A lot of it like, you know, it involves denying yourself, right? Does it hurt? Shove it down, be strong. You have a family to provide for.
Is there something that offends you or your family? Get upset about it. Get angry, get fierce about it. You know, don't actually stop and look at the discomfort and what it might mean. Get mad about it and fight, you know, stuff like, what does it mean to be a good husband? it means un absolutely uncompromising loyalty to your partner.
Fanatical self denying loyalty to your partner to the point where neither of you are actual human beings, you are playing a role of husband, you are playing a role of wife, and anything outside of the confines of what those roles mean to me is a source of distress, anger, frustration.
And I think that we had lots of prolonged conversations around how I had traumatized you and the ways you've traumatized me and how we've traumatized each other over the past seven years that we've been married at eight, if we count the time that we were actually moved in together. But a large chunk of how I traumatized you is because I was trying to take the both of us and shove us into these really narrow, super rigidly defined roles. And any deviation from that, I took personally. And then I made that your problem.
So when we're looking at this, when we're looking at this journey, it's a progression of slowly letting go of the things that I thought were me and really looking and discovering what I actually am. If I could decide what my values are, what would they be? If I didn't have to have any values and I got to choose, what values would I choose to keep and what values would I choose to discard?
And I can see like, you know, hindsight's 20 -20, right? But like, I can see now in this position how I've always been polyamorous. You know, as far back as I had crushes, like in middle school or late elementary school, as far back as I could remember, I never just crushed on one person.
And I kind of rationalize that away like, yeah, you can crush on multiple people. But then the one person that reciprocates your affections, that's the person you fixate on. And that's how you're going to be a good partner. Because in a monogamous world, you have to only have one partner. And if you don't, then there's something terribly wrong with you. You're evil. You're horrible. You're unfaithful. You're devious. So that's that's something, looking back, that I had internalized, but I had always been polyamorous.
And having gone through all of the work with you, only now am I able to look back and be like, holy crap, it feels nice to be able to acknowledge what I've always been.
Me:
You know, last May, April is when we started talking about it. And then September is when we officially opened up. But even then, like, I started dating first a little bit. I mean, I started like kind of going on the apps and like thinking about who to go on a date with on the apps or like kind of more exploring and open. And I think you started a few weeks after. So like, I think even then, probably like even at the end, there was a little bit of a hesitation. Do you remember that hesitation a little bit?
Dan:
Yeah, it wasn't a hesitation about polyamory per se. Like at that point when you had made your dating profile, I had reached two very important conclusions and that was one, your polyamory is absolutely legitimate and that, and two, I am still compatible with you and willing to be partnered with you and accept your polyamory as well. So those two important conclusions have already been reached by the time you had gone on the dating apps. What I had to do after that, after the work of like, hey, what are we now?
All the terms of what I thought I understood to be our marriage went out the window and we had to kind of rebuild our marriage from scratch. It's almost like we got like a soft divorce, right? It's like we had to dissolve the original marriage and then decide whether or not we're compatible. And if yes, what does the new marriage look like? So.
You know, we did all of that and I was at peace with all of that. And then after doing all that work, I asked a question that I didn't think I ever had to ask myself, which was, am I polyamorous? I was like, holy crap, I never thought about that before. I don't know. I do not know. And it was almost like the...
It's like the universe heard my question and what happened was...
Like it's hard for me to just chalk it up to pure coincidence, but we're at this restaurant and someone that I had a crush on in college, like lost sleep over, couldn't get her out of my head, dwelt on her 24 seven, like, holy crap, my chest hurts, but why am I so happy level crush? This person walks or who I thought was this person walks through the door, white dress, absolutely drop dead gorgeous, walks over to the table in the back of the restaurant and sits down. And at that moment I was like, whoa, my heart just did a major flippy dip.
I guess that means I'm polyamorous. So at that point, it was at that point after several weeks, then I had made my own dating profiles and watched all the tumbleweeds blow on by but you know that started forming my own connections and then I reached out to her on Facebook messenger.
I was like, hey how are you? It's been ten years. Hi, was that you two weeks ago at so -and -so restaurant and she was like, “It was.” And I was like, holy crap and then we met up over some bubble tea and I was able to reconnect with her and it was great.
It's like I got to absolve a part of my past when I was like, man, I really wish I had the guts to ask her out. But you know, it was college. I was deeply insecure and it just didn't happen. And I don't think I'd forgiven myself for that. But then I sat down with her and without any expectation just told her about the situation. Said, hey, just want to let you know how I'm feeling for you. Here's the situation with Angela and I.
I just always wanted to let you know that I've always thought you're a wonderful human being. I have no expectations around it. And it was great. It was really liberating. I don't know if anything's going to come of it. I hope something does. I have no expectations around it.
But the mere act of doing that was like dropping a weight I've been carrying for over a decade. So yeah, that's the gist of it.
Me:
I mean, I think that's really beautiful because like what a coincidence, like serendipity, like that's literally the definition of serendipity. Just as we were opening up, you just happen. And it's a restaurant that we don't even go to that often, maybe like two or three times a year. And we just happened to be there at that time. And you just happened to see her at that time.
Dan:
Serendipity is a really good word for it. And it's also why your SAT score is higher than mine. Anyway.
Me:
And also like it almost feels like if you had seen her like that like you ran into her like before we even talked about opening up our marriage like the year prior where we were still very much monogamous and we were not even talking about opening up at all and you ran into her you probably I would hazard a guess like tell me if I'm wrong that even if you saw her you'd be like yeah like you know my heart is doing tumbles and stuff like that but it's like, I'm not gonna ever talk to her about it kind of thing.
Dan:
Yeah. Yeah. It would have been repression or a hundred percent of the way denying the self, you know, what I've been doing for the past 20 years. It would have just been one more instance of that. Yeah.
Me:
If you really think about it, that's like... I feel like that would have been so unfortunate, but it was almost like the universe... Okay, the universe almost waited until we opened up to kind of present her to you almost, or have your paths cross, but that's just my story.
Dan:
It really... It honestly is kind of hard to chalk it up to coincidence. Yeah. In my heart of hearts, I feel like it happened for a reason, and I'm glad it happened.
Me:
Right. And, and she, and I love how like she was so receptive to and very curious and just very open to having a conversation about it too.
Dan:
Seriously. I was half expecting her to like, you know, start choking on a boba or, you know, okay. And like, I actually have to go. It's my appointment with, someone, bye, and like, I thought she was going to dip right then and there, but no, she, she, you know, of course she was originally shocked, but then she started asking questions around it. And.
It was really nice. It was a great conversation. I got to learn a little more of myself in answering her questions. And she was very open and very curious to it. And I thought that was really cool. It could have gone a hell of a lot worse. I'll tell you that.
Me:
And it also sounds like you were not attached to like, even though like you had maybe like a little bit of anxiety around how she responded, like you didn't have like any particular attachment to whether she was going to like quote unquote reject you because it was like, even if she did, it was, it was less about her, reaction and more about your freedom to express yourself.
Dan:
Yeah. And I think you're, you're coming up on something extremely important. What's really valuable for me in my own journey with polyamory is letting go of expectation, assumption, and judgment.
No expectations, no assumptions, no judgments. The minute we have those three things, and they're very sneaky, they come in without you even realizing it, so it takes conscious and constant effort, vigilance, to keep those three at bay. But the minute you put those on the sideline and focus on what your heart feels, you set your ego to the side and focus on what your heart feels, you don't have any pain around the way things turn out.
Instead, you're able to truly go with the flow. And I think that's important. I think that's really important, not just in polyamory, I find, but like in all walks of life. But, you know, especially since I've let go of so many of these values that I thought were intrinsic, I figured, you know, why have any expectations around anything at all? I just, I have to know myself.
What other thing can I do besides know myself and know where my boundaries are? That's enough work as it is. How is it even possible for me to exert myself on the world around me? I can't. At the end of the day, I might have some influence, but by and large, I'm powerless. So no expectations, no assumptions, no judgments.
Me:
I can't say the same for myself because I'm human and I will watch myself have expectations and judgments and assumptions.
Dan:
Let me be very clear on this. It doesn't mean that I don't have any. I do. Absolutely. Like all the time. You know, I mean, it could be something as minor as seeing someone's shoes. You know, my partner Kirby and I had a really fun little laugh about these high heels we saw at a bakery one morning and yeah, I catch myself judging the crap out of people's fashion or the way people drive or having little tiny sneaky expectations about, you know, man, I thought the dishes would be done or man, I thought, you know, this, that or the other, you know, they happen all the time.
Like you said, you're human, I'm human. But the mantra, no expectations, no assumptions, no judgment is more of a reminder to myself to constantly be on the lookout and catch them before they start steering my actions and steering my decisions.
Me:
I love that. So, so yeah, like, like last May, April, May, when when you had responded to my invitation to open up the marriage with like, absolutely hell no. Like that, that came with a lot of expectations, judgments and assumptions. And so how were you able to get from there to a place now where you're like, okay, I'm actually very vigilant about those things.
Dan:
I think it had to do with finding the values, the maladaptive values, where those expectations, judgments, and assumptions lived.
And noticing that the values where those expectations, judgments, and assumptions arose from were extremely toxic and that they were never my own values at all. They were values handed down to me by my father, most likely, or sometimes my mom, or sometimes both, but most often my dad.
Which of course is a product of, you know, his upbringing as well. And the kind of society that we live in, the messages that I had picked up over the course of, you know, 20 odd years of consuming Hollywood media and, you know, pop culture song lyrics and realizing, hold, hold up. Is this what I actually believe? Do I really believe that a wife ought to or a husband ought to?
Do I really believe that a family ought to look like X, Y, and Z? The short answer was no.
It's very tempting to sit in those values.
It's really tempting to do that because they're familiar and they're comfortable.
I think that ultimately where I was able to break out of that was looking at the amount of pain those values brought. And really it boiled down to almost a utilitarian calculus of, okay, if I have these values, what do I gain? What do I lose? If I forego these values, what do I gain?
What do I lose?
And in looking at the values of, you know, the traditional family or husband archetypes or traditional masculinity, and I was clinging so desperately to those values amongst others, the common denominator was it made my dad proud. It impressed, you know, my dad. It made my Korean ass immigrant dad proud of me after a lifetime of disappointing him, this is the one thing that he was proud of. And damned if I was going to let that go, which then got me to thinking, okay, what is it about his approval that is so damn important to me?
Is his approval worth you? Is his approval worth my autonomy?
And as you and I both know, it turns out the answer is no, his approval is not worth our connection, our partnership, our love. His approval is not worth my relationship with myself and denying myself.
Is his approval really nice to have? Would I like to have it? Absolutely.
But I've decided to no longer make it a need, no longer chase after it the way I've done before. Because it doesn't serve anything. It serves him. But it sure as hell doesn't serve me and it definitely doesn't serve you.
Me:
I mean, like it is kind of hard to go from a place of like a hell no to like actually because when you're in a place of hell no, it's like you're unwilling to even look at or be aware of those stories that you come with. And so how did you get from like a complete unwillingness to being like, OK, let me actually take a look.
Dan:
I think this is where I have to give you a shitload of credit.
Because in my hell no space, there was no how could you or why would you or if you really loved me you'd, there was none of that.
You saw my hell no for what it was, which was an immense deep pain at having what I thought was, you know, what I understood to be my entire life kind of shatter around me.
My hell no wasn't necessarily that I did not like polyamory or that I was myself not polyamorous. It was more of a an extremely visceral pain that I was I was trying to indicate to you by saying no.
I guess like the way, you know, I don't like thinking of myself as a toddler, but I think the comparison is apt. Like when Rhea's nervous system is overloaded, what does she do? She just kind of closes her eyes and says the same thing over and over again when she's throwing a tantrum. It's kind of what I did. My nervous system was so overloaded, my ability to think was so overloaded that all I could do was just squeeze my eyes shut and go, no, no, no, no, no.
You didn't push back on it, you sat with me. You held that pain.
And that allowed me to sit with my pain too. And when I sat with my pain, my anger, my frustration, when I sat with those feelings long enough, they took their masks off. The anger and frustration was really grief. It's really sadness. It was really fear. Sadness at the prospect of not having the future that I thought I would have that I was so certain I'd have. Grief of losing my parents' approval, the fear of losing you.
And then I got to really look at myself past those strong, strong initial reactions and those emotions.
And when I had to look past that, I got to see you. I got to see you in your totality and hear you without making it something that I did wrong. And hear you without making it a threat to my existence.
And it was then that we had probably some of our most human to human conversations we've had in almost a decade of being married. Conversations that, monogamous partners, strong marriage partners can't have these conversations. We can't talk about the divorce word. We can't talk about what a plan for divorce looks like. We can't talk about why we have mismatched libidos. We can't talk about these things.
Strong marriages don't have those. Only weak marriages have those problems and we're a strong marriage. We can't have those conversations. Well, when we kind of set that on fire, for better or worse, and I say that because it really was for the better, but when we tore that down, we really got to have those conversations.
So paradoxically, through all this, I feel closer to you than I've ever felt before because of embracing the possibility of losing you. How crazy is that when you say it out loud? But the acceptance of the idea that I could lose you allows me to communicate without that fear hanging over my head and to speak to topics that we normally would avoid.
And as a result, we connect on a deeper, more human level. And I'm more in love with you than I've ever been, which is really fucking cool.
Me:
That was very sweet. So it's almost like embracing the thought of losing me is almost the most expansive way to love me because it's almost like losing me is part of it could be one of the ways that I exercise my agency and for you to love me sounds like to you is to honor my agency.
Whatever that looks like, even if it might prompt uncomfortable emotions and experiences for you.
Dan:
Very well said. 100 % agree that that ultimately is what healthy love looks like. Possessive toxic compulsory monogamy is always where one person's autonomy plays second fiddle to either a value or to a partner. Sometimes someone's autonomy can play second fiddle to what it means to be a wife or what it means to be a husband or a son, for that matter. In an abusive relationship, a person's autonomy plays second fiddle to the abuser. Someone is in control, not necessarily even a value, but someone is in control in an abusive relationship.
So releasing the ego and embracing the full and complete humanity of your partner is ultimately honoring their autonomy and by extension honoring your autonomy too.
Me:
So you said you were talking about how like we had some conversations that we never had in the 10 years that we were together. What were some of the conversations that you remember that you feel like were, I guess, pivotal?
Dan:
Well, I don't remember the exact conversations per se.
What I know is that they centered around like, what would it look like? Like what would be the end of our partnership?
When we had conversations around what would end our partnership, we got to really look at boundaries, soft boundaries and hard boundaries. Things that we had kind of skirted around or danced around and never really given voice to or looked at in the light. But we got to say, hey, since there's no longer a fear of the dissolution of this partnership,
Here are the limits of it.
Here is where the partnership ends. And in doing so, we, for the first time in my opinion, I don't know if you, you know, if you agree with this or not, but for me, for the first time, I felt like I saw our partnership, our marriage in its totality, not this nebulous cloud of lovey -dovey ideals and, you know, let's stay together for the kids or let's make sure that we look good at the happy hour or the staff happy hour.
It was more of a, here are all the ways that this marriage could end.
Here are the firm boundaries that we have.
And it turns out when we look at those boundaries and talk about them explicitly, we don't have to have ruptures because someone inadvertently either comes up on or crosses the boundary and you can't talk about it because you're not allowed. That boundary is so taboo, you're not allowed to talk about it until finally, boom, you know, someone explodes. We don't have to have a partnership where that's the way we relate to each other.
I've said this to you many times where I said, my God, Angela, I feel like I'm in a minefield with you sometimes. I've said that to you before in our darkest arguments or our loudest, most violent arguments. I said things like that to you. And it really felt that way. And looking back, it's so obvious. Of course it was a minefield because a minefield implies that you don't know where the mines are. But when you have a conversation around boundaries,
It's no longer a minefield because you know exactly where those boundaries are, right? At least that's my sentiment around it. And as a result, I feel extremely secure in my attachment to you knowing full well that I have boundaries and you have boundaries and I know I trust myself to honor your boundaries and mine and that I trust you to honor my boundaries and to honor yours. How amazing have our conversations have been since then, right?
How incredibly healing has it been for both of us where you get to say, hey, you crossed this boundary. I've been so terrified in the past of talking to you about it. I want you to hear that you crossed this boundary without getting upset about it. And I said, OK.
How fucking amazing is that?
How great is it that when you cross my boundaries, I don't have to take it personally anymore? Because I don't have to attribute the crossing of the boundary to malicious intent or ignorance. It's something that I have the power to communicate to you and that I trust you that when I communicate that, you'll see it, you'll accept it, you'll hear it, and you'll do your very best within your human capacity to honor it.
It's really great to relate with you that way instead of being so scared and nervous all the time.
Me:
So what is a boundary that you, what is a boundary that is important to you that we can talk about as an example? Well, I mean, the most absolutely critical example above all else.
Dan:
The safety of our two kids.
And that can extend to the kind of partners that know where we live, right, where the nest is located. It can also be the kind of future that we're going to provide for them. Now we've had a lot of conversations around that, right? It could be the way we parent. That probably is the single most obvious example because if there's any kind of situation where Rhea or Harper or both of their safety is jeopardized in any way. That's something that I would never negotiate on.
Another example of a really obvious boundary is STIs. And that's very much related to Rhea and Harper safety too, because ultimately, I don't want them to be exposed to STIs by proxy. I wanna feel secure in my physical intimacy with you.
So those are examples of really hard boundaries. I think the other one that we talked about was not having any more kids. Like that's another really firm boundary that we've had conversations around. Really just preserving the nest as it is, making sure that, you know, because ultimately having more children will, you know, it'll detract from Rhea and Harper's quality of life in the future. We won't be able to fairly or equitably provide for more children at this point in this economy. So those are all conversations that we've had.
And the other thing that I found that was really interesting and this is very much related to Rhea and Harper safety was the conversation we originally had around boundaries about partners coming to the house. I remember originally my boundary there was a firm no, partners can't come to the nest.
But then over time through conversation, what I discovered for myself was that a boundary doesn't have to be set in stone. Nothing has to be set in stone. At that moment, the boundary was valid. At that moment, I did not have the capacity to think about or entertain the ways where a partner coming over to the house could still be okay and safe.
And over time that changed. And as it changed, we had conversations around the word and constant ongoing conversation in relation with each other. You know, you're regarding me, I'm regarding you. And as a result, we get to, I guess, be the masters of our own fate. Right?
Me:
Yeah, I mean, boundaries can feel difficult, challenging, especially like there are relationships where you try to communicate a boundary and then the other person takes it personally and they're offended by it. And that's, I think, one of the biggest sort of like fear, like anxieties and anxiety inducing parts of boundaries. So how do you look at that?
Dan:
Yeah, there's a lot of anxiety around that. Especially since the two relationships that I've been in that have ended were with partners who pretty much did that. They heard my boundary and said, no, I need more. And then we had to have a conversation around our compatibility as a result. It didn't feel great.
It's not like something that I would wake up and just relish the feeling of, but it felt right. It felt right. I wasn't forcing myself to be someone I'm not. And that's something that, in looking at investigating the values that I do want and don't want, I resolved to myself is to never force myself to be something that I'm not, even if it means losing a relationship that was quite wonderful in every other respect.
So there's always the risk of communicating boundaries and then discovering incompatibilities.
But that's the thing of it. Like you're not going to be compatible with every human on the planet. That's just not going to be the case. Sometimes those incompatibilities are glaringly obvious. Sometimes those incompatibilities are like, nope. And you immediately swipe left. You read the first sentence of their bio and you're like incompatible. Goodbye. Sometimes it's that obvious. Other times incompatibilities can be far more subtle. Now,
When that happens, that really sucks. But it's really important to honor those incompatibilities, because ultimately, it's coming back to what you said earlier.
Love ultimately is about lifting up the autonomy of all humans, especially someone that you are in a relationship with.
If you're denying your autonomy, if you're denying their autonomy, the relationship is not meant to last.
It's not sustainable if you're denying your autonomy or their autonomy to make this thing happen just because of a fear of letting something go. But the minute you realize that it's okay to not be compatible with this person, it's okay to let yourself feel sad for not being compatible and acknowledge that to be true, the more you realize that in fact you're doing yourself and your partner a service.
You're minimizing the harm in recognizing, communicating, and speaking as lovingly and compassionately as you can to the incompatibility.
It doesn't feel great, but in the relationships that have ended, it has felt right. And I think that there's a reason why the relationships that have ended have been mostly with sadness as opposed to hostility.
Me:
So like in our relationship, you said that you had also investigated whether we are compatible. And I can imagine how that could have been a very, that question was prompted by like, like, is my autonomy being compromised because she wants me to change and be open and be polyamorous? How did you experience that question?
Dan:
That's a great question because the thing I didn't want to do was exactly what I said before. I didn't want to be like, yeah, sure. Fine, fine, fine. I guess I'm okay with polyamory. Fine. And then have it blow up in my face later. I didn't want that. I didn't want that for you. I didn't want that for me. And I sure as hell didn't want that for the kids. If we were not going to be compatible or if we were going to be compatible either or I wanted to make sure it was true. Right. For everyone's benefit.
I wanted to make sure that whatever conclusion that we reached, it was authentic, that it was genuine. There was no sunk cost fallacy. Like, man, I already have a whole family. I don't want to give this up. I didn't want that to be the driving factor in my decision.
So of course the first thing I did was create a plan for what separation looked like. And once that was secure, and I knew what to expect somewhat, with some degree of certainty and security, what separation would look like, at that point I was able to do the work of, okay, I have this all sorted out. Now that losing or dissolving the existing relationship is no longer a factor, two things. Do I have the capacity for accepting polyamory?
Do I receive? Perceive, receive, and feel love?
And ultimately, do I want to give love to you? Do I have that desire in my heart?
Those questions were pretty hard to answer immediately. It took a lot of, but what if, okay, let me sit with this, let me sit with that.
Lot of doubt. But do I really? Yes, but am I sure? No, but actually is that a no? Lots of that kind of stuff coming up for me.
What I can say is that the only way that I was able to get through that was because you held that space for me to do that work. You did not push. You did not demand. You did not guilt. You did not shame. You sat with me.
And it was in that space. And not for nothing, a space that you spent a tremendous amount of emotional labor to create that I felt an immense love from you and an immense love towards you.
Me:
Well, I mean, I also want to point out that it wasn't always like flowers and rainbows.
Dan:
No, it was not. Absolutely fucking literally not. Like, tell us about those moments where like there were ruptures and there were moments where I did not hold those spaces skillfully. Chiefly with social media. You know how I felt about it originally. I was still trying to come to terms with the fact that everything I thought I knew about my life was, you know, crumbling around me and then you wanted to trumpet that on Instagram.
I was like, what the fuck? Are you serious right now? I'm sitting here. I'm in shambles and you want to, you know, you want to tweet about it? Like, come on. You know, that was something that really bothered me. I'm an extremely private person. You know, I'm my I'll be honest. My skin's crawling right now as I'm doing this interview with you. You're so good at it. Well, I'm certainly glad I appear so, but like.
You know how it is, like every time you're like, my God, Dan, can I please post this? I'm like, no. Why? Why? Why can't I post this, please?
Me:
I know, I'm a social media whore. Yes.
Dan:
Your words, not mine.
But yeah, I've always been a very private person. I still am for, you know, for all intents and purposes. So yeah, when that happened, there was a rupture around that. I think, you know, the pain point was that for you, this wasn't about like, hey, look at me. It was more for a sense of like a purpose and advocacy to give weight to the words that allow you to feel free so that other people who are struggling like you were could find, you know, solace and hope.
And then for me, it was like, do you not see me where I am right now? You really want to put me on blast where I am right now. And we butted heads pretty fiercely over that, if you recall.
Another thing I think where we ruptured quite a bit was where I felt betrayed. Right? And I so desperately wanted to like blame you. I really did.
Because how easy is it to be like, she said her marriage vows, right? She agreed to the terms and conditions of this marriage. She checked the box and hit continue, right? So of course it's her fault. That's the story I wanted to tell myself. I wanted to tell myself that you had manipulated me, that you had betrayed me.
Which, you know, that story is in direct contrast with the fact that I genuinely believe you when you say that you were going through the motions. You were as programmed as I am. And we are all part of a system that we didn't necessarily want in the first place. It was handed to us.
Like the same way my values were handed to me, you had values handed to you, right? You had to be the dutiful daughter. You had to find a man that was suitable for your family's approval. You had to have your two and a half kids and a stable career. And then you did the work of dismantling the values that you wanted to have and did not want to have first.
And in doing so, you discovered your polyamory. And that's not your fault. Like I cannot blame you for that. You were as manipulated as I was. But damn if it wasn't convenient to blame you. Because you're sitting right there. And it's your words coming out of your mouth saying things like, I'm polyamorous.
You were like, when I was saying my marriage vows to you, it was because I was not really monogamous when I said it, so it doesn't count. I just want to like, you know, paint you in the most uncharitable light possible, and I couldn't. I honestly wanted to, but I couldn't, and that was a deeply, deeply frustrating feeling. I felt betrayed. I felt hurt. But I had no one to point that at.
I couldn't point it at me. I couldn't point it at you.
And it's so unsatisfying to just point it at the world and be like, societal injustice, you know, the fucking patriarchy, toxic compulsory monogamy, like those are not things that you can reach out, touch and hurt, right? So I was just stuck there, stewing in that feeling of betrayal. And I ruptured around it. I ruptured a lot around it.
And looking back, I don't know how I feel about this, but I'd asked you for an apology.
And I still remember you were like, I'm not going to apologize for who I am. I'm not going to apologize for doing what's true to me.
But I will apologize for the pain that you're feeling as a result of relating with me.
Yeah, that was a really important moment, I think, in moving our relationship forward.
It was a moment where I truly felt seen, knowing that you're not compromising who you are, but that you truly do understand where I am and the pain that I'm in. It was really important to me.
Me:
So overall, it just kind of sounds like we experimented our way through a lot of triggers, a lot of wounds, and ultimately came out kind of noticing what is in fact true to us, like little by little by little, because the reality is, as you illustrated, like, seeing the truth of who we really are is extremely painful because you realize that you have to kind of destroy so many beliefs that we were told were quote unquote right. And so it's not something that can happen like overnight of course.
I also remember how like we started the conversation in April, May, but then when we went to Korea, like middle of June, and then we came back like early August ish for seven weeks, we were out of the country traveling in Korea with the kids. And during those seven weeks, like we did not talk about this at all. We were like, we're going to focus on what is immediate right now because our partnership is foundational.
Without our partnership, there's like not even anything to open up. So it's not like we were talking about this day in and day out and we have to like dismantle everything and talk for hours and hours and hours. It was just like a lot of slowness, a lot of witnessing, a lot of grappling, a lot of aching and a lot of silence.
And I don't really like to use the word patience because I feel like patience, the existence of patience depends on the existence of impatience. Cause I think patience is really just a manifestation of our unwillingness to engage with our impatience. And I feel like that was how I was the whole time. Like I was impatient the whole time, but I was just unwilling to engage with my impatience because I knew that that would not land us anywhere sustainable.
But in the end, it was just like a lot of, yeah, a lot of sometimes just talking about things that were completely unrelated to polyamory and talking about our lives and talking to each other and even experiencing ruptures that had nothing to do with polyamory in some ways.
Like I remember in Korea, we had like an argument at the coffee shop about something, but I don't even remember what it was and nothing to do with polyamory. And so like, looking at our partnership and our marriage, even outside of polyamory, like where are we there to and how are we relating to each other and do we like the way we're relating to each other?
Dan:
100% and the common thread of course in everything you're saying being intentionality. The silence was intentional. The not engaging with impatience was intentional. It was in intentionality where we were able to move at the pace that was correct for us. Finding that way of how are we going to relate to each other that truly honors the both of us.
Yeah, and I really think it goes to show that it's not necessarily the, you know, the discovery of our polyamory and the embracing of it that has made our relationship stronger. Honestly, that's more, the polyamory was the catalyst to dealing with something that would frankly make for a really healthy monogamous relationship too.
Whether you're polyamorous or monogamous or a polyamorous in a relationship with a monogamous person or a monogamous person in a relationship with a polyamorous person, whatever the case may be, kind of circling back to what you said earlier, finding ways to truly love each other.
And in our totality love each other through honoring each other's autonomy. I think that's very much possible to do no matter what your relationship orientation might be.
I mean, you know, there's plenty of successful monogamous relationships out as well. Like there's, you know, there's like people who are genuinely happy to be monogamous with each other and their relationship is healthy. And I would venture to guess that a large component of their success has a lot to do with where our success is too. It's just, they happen to be monogamous and that's fine.
Me:
Everything that you said, it's like, they prompted like even more questions that I want and more topics I want to talk to you about. But we are approaching the hour and I think this is a good place to kind of like, I feel like we did talk about a lot of things that come up in at least like the opening of the marriage. and really the whole thing was about like the whole metamorphosis. And I feel like you spoke to that a lot. maybe we can do like a part two later.
But I think this is a good place to stop. I really, I love you so much and thank you for being willing to let your skin crawl and talking about everything with me today.
Dan:
Thanks for having me. I love you too.
*
I hope you enjoyed this episode, whether you read through it or listened to it or even parts of it. Dan dropped some really good nuggets.
And here’s what I want to share with those of you who are grappling with opening up your marriage.
I suspect that the greatest fear around opening up are the scary conversations that arise in the course of opening up.
Whether you choose to keep the peace now and avoid the scary conversations or you choose to take on the challenge of relating with your partner through your differences, both paths are challenging as fuck.
There is no “better” path. It’s a matter of which path you are more invested in as who you are and what you want.
And if you choose to take the path where you actually expand your capacity to have those scary conversations, I want to be a resource for you.
The Opener is a space where you can come in around the clock to walk through and talk through all the wrinkles (including the ugly ones - in fact, especially the ugliest ones) in community with me and people who are going through very similar experiences.
Nobody should be going through this alone. I know this because we went through it alone last year, and it was the worst of the storms.
We might feel the darkness, but we don’t have to be alone in the darkness.
Send me a message to join or join here: angela-han.com/opener
You’ll get immediate access to all of the coaching that’s happened over the past several months and my transmissions around very specific challenges in opening up your marriage. Our next weekly call (which changes in schedule each week) is on Wednesday, May 15, at 9pm Eastern. I stay on the call until I get through whatever everybody brings to the call.
Can’t wait to see you inside.
Thank you and Dan for sharing this personal and intimate look into the life and soul of your partnership and of each of you. There’s so much to learn from this that applies to all of us, our lives, and relationships. Thank you again, Angela.