Dan's side of the story in opening up our marriage (Part 2)

A transcript of our newest conversation on my new podcast Relating

Dan and I had such a fun time in our last episode (at least I did 😂) that I asked him to come on again to talk about some other questions that came up for me in the last episode:

• How did you get from a place of “hell to the no” to “I am now in love with multiple people”?

• How did you experience jealousy, if at all? Especially when I found other people more physically and sexually attractive?

• How do we experience conflict in our marriage right now?

• How have you experienced judgment from others about our open marriage at work?

You can also listen to the audio anywhere or here: angela-han.com/podcast

Here is the lightly edited transcript if you’d rather read through.

Me:

Welcome back to this episode of Relating. I am here with Dan again because the last episode I was talking, we were talking about a lot of different things and that prompted me to think of a series of other questions that came up for me. And so why not record another conversation where I find more answers from Dan. I really appreciated the answers that he shared. So welcome back, Dan.

*introductory maniacal laughter*

Dan:

Hi. Still not funny.

Me:

OK, so the first thing that is jumping out, jumping out at me is is about jealousy. How did you experience any jealousy in the beginning? Because when we opened up our marriage back in September.

It's what now like nine months ago, my goodness. I started kind of going out first and then you started kind of getting on the apps a little bit after that, maybe like two or three weeks after I started going on the apps. And so during that time, I was I was just kind of like, I don't know if I started sleeping around yet. I think I did maybe like with one or two people.

And there were instances where I was kind of like, I was kind of getting ready and like grooming myself and getting all, getting all, looking all impressive and trying to look impressive and everything. And I remember there was a little bit of a disconnect there. But yeah, from your experience, did you experience jealousy at all? And if so, how did you experience it?

Dan:

Wow. That's a big question. Jealousy, first and foremost, I think, should be defined before we talk about what I felt or felt about one way or another. But jealousy, as far as I'm concerned, is a feeling of discomfort that comes up when a need or a want is not being met.

And jealousy, I think, is a unique form of resentment in that it comes up as a basis of comparison. Whereas resentment can just come up because, let's say, you feel disregarded or you feel ignored. Jealousy is unique in that it comes up as a comparison of different situations or different people.

So I guess the easiest way to talk about that, especially early on in our relationship was like you said, the amount of attention you received on like Bumble or Hinge or whatever compared to the lack of attention I received, right? And you know, for the guys out there, I'm sure you can empathize. You know, we put out a profile and it's just tumbleweeds. But then I got to see, you know, Angela put out a Bumble profile, like half -baked, like three picture minimum, like two sentence bio. And then she blew up. How many, how many matches did you get in that first, like two hours after you went live? It wasn't matched. It was just like, whatever the likes and stuff. How many did you get? I don't remember. It was like 40, 50. I don't remember. It was like a double digit number in a two hour span. And I think after.

Like you said, like nine months, I'm finally getting to where you were two hours into your journey. So like it's, it's, it's a, you know, at, at first glance, just at a cursory glance, it seems like, Whoa, I'm jealous of you because you're getting all this attention. Whereas I'm not, you know, and then we can talk more about that in detail because it really is actually, there's, there's actually a lot of male privilege in dating, but you know, can get that, get into that later.

But yeah, that's probably the most obvious example of jealousy that I had early on. Just like, whoa, that's a huge difference compared to what I'm seeing here on my end. The other, you mentioned that you were getting ready, like trying to look really pretty, going out for dates and all that. And I guess I had some feelings coming up then because I was like, whoa, I don't think I ever remember you this excited and like getting ready when we're going out. But it occurs to me that when it comes to jealousy, when it comes to comparison, it's inherently something that if you follow that string long enough, it always ends up not what the other person is doing, but rather something that you have to address within yourself.

Why would I expect you to get dolled up when we're going on dates? We've been married for many, many years. Like, you know, there's no point in that. And frankly, here's the hypocritical part that I didn't want to look at. I wasn't particularly putting in a ton of effort when we were going out either. So, you know, where was that feeling coming from? It's not because there was something inherently unfair in the situation.

It was because there was a want or a need that I felt in myself that I wasn't receiving, but the truth was I just had to change the way I thought about that.

Is your putting on makeup for first dates an indication that you love me any less? Right? And the answer to that was obviously no. After all the work that we've done, it was very clear that, you know, no amount of makeup, no amount of really cute outfits you put on for first dates was any kind of evidence that you loved me any less. So that feeling ultimately came from a place of, wait a minute, what am I feeling threatened by?

And then when I looked at myself, I realized, you know what? I'm feeling insecure.

And that's what the work I had to do. That was the need and the want. I wanted security. And that was work I had to do within myself. There was nothing I can make you do to make that jealousy go away. Right? And that tends to be the case, I think, for like all instances of jealousy. Whether it's the amount of attention we get on Bumble or, you know, that initial feeling that came up for me when you were getting super duper excited to go out on first dates or the the the time that you have and then you come back all smiles and I'm still waiting for my first swipe.

You know, it's like it's all a question not of what the other person is doing, which is what is really tempting to do to point a finger and blame like that's I think our knee -jerk reaction But when we take a harder look at jealousy, it's always what's inside, like wait a minute, what is it about being by myself that I find so uncomfortable?

Maybe I need to really look at myself and come to terms with the fact that it is okay for me to be by myself. That I don't need someone to be within this, you know, orbit, like immediate physical vicinity for me to feel complete or whole. Right? And when I start doing that, like, yeah, sure, this is a perfect time. The kids are down, you're out on a date. Let me crush an awesome workout or play this video game completely without anything hanging over my head.

And really get that delicious me time that I, you know, paradoxically would complain of not getting enough of, right? So, yeah, it's really just a question of where is that feeling coming out of? The jealousy is a symptom. It's a symptom of a root cause. And when you start looking at those root causes, it's always within. It's never the other person. Yeah, good question. Holy moly.

Me:

I think you sort of answered this question, but like the security part, right? I think a lot of people, when we experience jealousy, it's like, why can't I just stop feeling jealous? And they feel like they're behind, or they feel like inadequate or inferior for feeling these experiences of jealousy.

And even after they extract that relevant information from jealousy around the insecurities and what we are looking for or after and all those things They can they might logically understand. Okay, like maybe what I want is attention or maybe what I want is having my own back or Being skilled at solitude or whatever even though we logically Identify what it is that we are lacking or in want of it's still it still can be jarring and can be hard to address this feeling of jealousy. And so if you find yourself in that place, what are your thoughts in moving through that one?

Dan:

That's an excellent question. Jealousy is an extremely stigmatized feeling. Society, by and large, will paint jealousy out to be an emotion of weakness that people who are in positions of power never feel jealous. And that, you know, I mean, even look at the media, right? Jealous characters in movies or TV shows are often antagonists, right? They're often portrayed in a negative light to the audiences who are watching. Song lyrics are always putting down jealous people as inferior or weak. It's an extremely stigmatized emotion.

There's a lot of shame associated with feeling jealous. So naturally the first thing you want to do is deny it. I'm not jealous. No, I'm not. Why would I be jealous? I'm not, I'm not geek. I'm not a jealous person. Right? But no, jealousy is an emotion just like any other emotion. And unfortunately there's a lot of stigma associated with it. So the first thing that has to happen is the unshaming of it.

To acknowledge that it's there in the first place, which is a lot harder to do than to just merely talk about here. But yeah, I mean, to sit with that feeling and accept it, to hold it, that is a skill in and of itself in my opinion, but once you do that, everything else just kind of falls into place. But you're right, if you try to look at jealousy purely from a logical, epistemological way where you're kind of taking everything and like, here are all the reasons why this feeling's coming up, that's only gonna get you halfway there, frankly, you can't even start to do that work until you unshame jealousy in the first place and allow yourself to feel it.

And the minute you do that the minute you allow yourself to feel an emotion regardless of what you know the nebulous them or other would say, those those people who you know judge you for having that feeling whoever that may be society at large your partner your parents your friends. Whoever. Don't worry about what they might say about your feelings. Just feel it, accept it, sit with it, validate it. It is very reminiscent of that inner child work that people talk about a lot. But really just sit with that feeling, that feeling of jealousy. And then eventually after you've calmed yourself down, if you've nurtured that emotion, just sat with it and shown it as much love and compassion as you can, jealousy takes off her mask. Jealousy takes off his mask and then you get to see a real part of yourself that was hurting that you might not have been able to address before.

Me:

I'm gonna keep pressing on this jealousy for a minute here because it's a huge, huge topic in non -monogamy. There was another question that I was asked a while ago about like, how do you deal with jealousy when your partner is out with someone that you think is more attractive than you are? And I thought that was an interesting question and I talked about jealousy, like kind of similarly along the lines of what you we're talking about how to identify what it is that you want. But in your experience, this actually happened. We were talking about how I was not physically or sexually attracted to you, and then I was more physically and sexually attracted to somebody else that I had NRE with. NRE meaning new relationship energy. And so as you were watching me engage more sexually with other people in that way, how did you feel and how did you experience that?

Dan:

There's a lot to unpack there. That's a great question. I mean, I might even argue that jealousy is an issue not inherent to non-monogamy, right? It's just that in a non -monogamous situation where communication is the foundation upon which everything is built, you're forced to have conversations around it, where in compulsory monogamous situations, people can just take the institution of marriage or the institution of relationship escalator and take the jealousy and just bury it deep inside until it rots and festers. It's just that in this particular, in this, I guess, dynamic, we have to talk about it or else we're gonna drown.

So I would argue that jealousy is not a non -monogamous issue. It's a human issue, right? So that's the first part. And to get to the second part of what you're saying is like the whole like attraction bit.

I think that when it comes to attraction, the question should be who determines levels of attraction. Because when you have that feeling of, you're going out with someone who's more attractive than me, well, says who?

Right? And furthermore, what even is attraction and is it such a single, you know, linear thing or like intelligence, are there different types of attraction?

Because yeah, I know it's and I have to like really swallow my pride to say this out loud where I have some some unlearning to do around this yet, but I have to come to terms with the fact that You do not find me as physically attractive as some of your other partners. That is a fact and yet we're extremely happily married and I mean if I'm allowed to say this we have incredible sex and I think a big part of that isn't because

Attraction is defined solely by physical attraction. Attraction is one of those things where, you know, the sum is greater than the, the whole is greater than the sum of its parts, right? So when people hyperfixate on one facet of attraction,

The first thing that I would recommend is to take a big step back from that and say, wait a minute, where is this metric coming from? Why do I find such threatening feelings coming out of this assessment? Yes, maybe it even is true that the person your partner is on a first date with, maybe even without NRE, your partner finds them more physically attractive than you. So what?

Right? Because when you start looking at the why you feel threatened, it stops being about what your partner's doing. It stops being about your metamour. And it's about where your insecurities and your fears and your needs and your wants lie, where your hurt and your trauma lies. And that, that you have some limited degree of control over. You have the ability to do some work around, meditate, think, you know. Speak with a therapist on.

Because you can't change the fact that people have physical types. That's just the thing. People will have a physical type, but that doesn't mean that you can't have a really rewarding, fruitful, loving, deeply intimate relationship with someone where physical attraction might not be the, you know, the crux upon which everything is built. It certainly isn't the case in our marriage. At least in terms of the way you view me.

Me:

So I think when it comes to jealousy and scenarios like that, people get worried because, she is more physically attracted to that person. And so that might lead to even more, even greater emotional attraction. And that can lead to even more like all these other types of attractions. And then my partner is going to leave me for that new shiny object, almost like objectifying this new partner, right? And so I think that's also a thought that a lot of people have when it comes to jealousy, like, like they found someone better than me. And so how do you look at that experience?

Dan:

Again, it all boils down to an assessment where you have to look at yourself. Anytime there's a jealousy assessment, like, this person's going to leave me, I feel so threatened by that other person.

You're taking your power and handing it to your partner and taking your power and handing it to your metamour.

The thing is, let's even talk about the worst case scenario. Let's just say for the sake of argument that someone does in fact leave you for a new partner. That doesn't make you any less valuable. Your worth is inherent to who you are, regardless of who your partner finds attractive. And that's the thing of it. It's like when you start looking at your sense of worth through the lens of comparing, the way others look at you and the way others, the way you measure to other people, that's a really unhealthy way to value yourself.

Every single person is valuable in their own right. It doesn't mean that you're going to meet someone and immediately fall in love with every single person you meet, you know, when you're at the grocery store, right? But that person who you pass in the, you know, pasta aisle is deeply, deeply loved by somebody. And it's, it might not be you, but they have an unspeakable value to the people who love them, even if you don't. And chances are you won't because you're trying to get your groceries sorted and go home and take care of the kids, right?

So when we release ourselves of the need to put ourselves in some kind of hierarchical pecking order and instead find security in knowing our own worth and value, I think that's really liberating. Even if the relationship ends because someone finds another person, if that happens, I'll be, let me be dead ass. Like if that happens, if your partner really does do that.

Bullet dodged, honestly. Like, is that really someone you wanna be, you know, in a deep romantic connection with? I don't know. I personally wouldn't want someone who is using me as a step stone to get somewhere else. That's just my two cents. But that's the worst case scenario, and even there, your value remains unchanged. And it's up to you to see that. No one else can make you see what you're worth. But the minute you know that you are invaluable, you will have no doubt in your mind that given enough time and enough patience, and for us guys out there, holy moly, we need a lot of that time and patience, right? But given enough time and patience, you will find your people, the people who look at you and see the value that you see in yourself.

Me:

I also wonder like, people also like they they like to say well I don't think I can ever do that like I don't think I can ever get over jealousy it just seems like too much hard work or like I am like uniquely irreparably broken or I have like too much trauma around it and so like, this kind of work is only for people who are, I don't know, they have their shit together or whatever it is. How do you respond to that sentiment?

Dan:

I see you, I hear you, and I believe you, full stop.

Never square peg a round hole. If you're not ready for it, you're not ready for it. And no person should ever make you feel compelled to do something that you're not ready to do. And if you're saying that jealousy is this massive, massive thing that is absolutely unconquerable for the moment, then by all means, by all means, give yourself the grace to know that we are all imperfect humans.

And yeah, if it's not the time or place for it right this moment, that is okay. That is okay. If it never comes to pass, that's okay too.

There's a very sneaky should sentiment in that kind of thinking like, I can never do this. This is only for people who are able to do this work. And the unspoken part, in parentheses is, and I wish I would be able to do this because I should. That's a sneaky little thing that kind of comes in to play there. But if you give yourself the grace of knowing that there's no shoulds, that you're gonna do what's right in the moment at that time, in that place. Then suddenly I think, this is my personal feeling around it, having done some work where, you know, I've told you this earlier, I'm just an angry person.

How many times do you remember me hearing say that? that's just who I am, that's how I'm wired. I'm angry, I'm always gonna be angry. You remember me saying that? I remember myself saying that. And looking back, I'm like, wow, I actually said that. But in the moment, it was true.

In the moment, it could not have been any more true. Like, it was so real. That even if I popped into a time machine and went back in time and told my past self, like, hey buddy, listen, listen, listen, it's just your trauma. You're not an angry person. You have constructs around anger as strength and anger as control. And the root cause of your outburst is not that it's a trait.

But rather your responses to trauma and how you chronically feel unsafe. That past self, knowing full well I'm a future self, is gonna still be like, well actually you're still just an angry person, you're just in denial about it. I have no doubt. Never square peg round hole.

Give yourself grace. The minute you try to force yourself to be something you're not, it will never ever come to pass.

Me:

I think that the situation gets a little complicated and this is a scenario that is common in opening up your marriage. It's like you are the one who wants to open up the marriage and you want to be open and like meeting other people.

And then you realize that when your partner, the openee, I guess, starts dating around, then you start having jealousy. So it's like, I think the feeling of like, I, it's almost like I cannot afford to feel jealous because I'm the one who opened up the marriage. I'm the one who opened up the relationship. So I need to, I need to really get a handle of my jealousy.

And giving myself grace seems so inaccessible to me because I feel like I'm being totally unfair.

Dan:

Well, there it is. There's the shaming. It is probably one of the most shamed emotions to experience.

And are we really going to talk about how fair or unfair jealousy is to feel? I mean, replace the word jealousy with sadness. And suddenly it becomes absurd. it's really not fair for me to feel sad right now. What?

No, it doesn't matter the circumstances around it. You are allowed to feel sad, right? But then with jealousy, all of a sudden there's this really terrible stigma around it where it's like, yeah, a lot of people are going to be like, well, if I want it to be the one to open up the marriage, then I'm not allowed to feel jealous. No, of course you're allowed to feel jealous. You're allowed to feel whatever the fuck you want, right? That's the nature of an emotion. It just happens and it's true. It happens because it's true. And I guess where if you want to have a value judgment in an emotional setting, the only thing that you can really have a value judgment about is how you choose to react to that emotion, right?

So the emotion in and of itself shouldn't be stigmatized, in my opinion. The more you suppress it, the more you tell yourself you're not allowed to feel it because it wouldn't be fair or just to feel that emotion, the bigger the rupture is going to be down the road. Because again, jealousy is a symptom.

And when you look at jealousy, when you hold jealousy's hand long enough, and just pat it on the back, say, hey, jealousy, it's all right, it's okay, I'm here, I'm with you. And you sit with your jealousy long enough, you realize where it's coming from, it takes its mask off, and suddenly, wait a minute, I've always had this hurt. This hurt preceded the whole opening up of the marriage. There's something here that needs to be addressed.

And I have some bad news for you. Whether or not you choose to address it, you know, as a result of an open marriage or you choose to repress it because of some other reason, right? It's going to come up. It's going to rupture. It's just we have the privilege in a non -monogamous setting to have the opportunity to talk about these really tough things because communication is just that important. We have that really rare privilege when making non -monogamy work to actually get all the cards on the table in a way that compulsory monogamy simply does not allow.

I mean, if you're a successful monogamist, it's the same principle. You're going to have that really open, clear communication where ruptures as a result of jealousy are going to be handled before there are ruptures by destigmatizing those feelings, by talking about them by listening to your partner when they bring it without judgment.

Me:

So yeah, it's again another sneaky should statement coming up. They're like, I shouldn't feel jealous. Right?

Dan:

Well, I mean, that's about as effective as saying, well, I shouldn't feel angry, or I shouldn't feel sad. It's gonna happen. You're gonna feel the feelings.

It's what they mean, where they come from, the causes, the root causes, and ultimately how we choose to react to those feelings that matter, I think.

Me:

So I think that was a pretty good, pretty thorough discussion on jealousy as much as we could, as much as I could think of at the moment. And so I think now the question that is like, if, because jealousy tends to be like the biggest trigger for rupture in a lot of openings. But since we didn't really, experience as much jealousy, at least right now, one could wonder, does that mean that our partnership is perfect? It's all rainbows and butterflies.

Dan:

I mean, who's asking that question? I'd like to meet that person, offer them some anti -psychotics, but like, no, we do not have a perfect partnership. And the concept of a perfect partnership is rooted in toxic compulsory monogamy.

That's, I staunchly believe that. I would even argue that in successful monogamous relationships, you start out imperfectly matched and grow closer together. In fact, I mean, I don't have any like real concrete hard data to prove this, but you always hear those anecdotal stories about how arranged marriages end up so successful, as opposed to the people who are soulmates or meant for each other and then they fell into each other's arms in a whirlwind of NRE and pink butterflies and then like you know five years later they're like I hate you but then you have like you know compete to like virtually complete strangers who get married one day.

Athen they have to figure it out from scratch and then you wonder like wait a minute why is there like generally this this sentiment of more success more happiness more partnership in those arranged marriages where we would at least according to Hollywood tropes think that it wouldn't be possible because, that's not what true love looks like and sounds like according to the Hollywood executives, you know, to the song lyrics.

Well, I think a big part of that is because if you have to, if you have to create a romantic partnership with someone who's a total stranger, the first thing you're going to do is, you know, you're going to communicate your ass off and you're going to create that system of communication as the basis, as opposed to when you fall wildly in love with someone.

And you just coast off that NRE and then next thing you know that NRE wears off and you're trying to spitball something together, right? I think even in a monogamous setting that communication is key. That unfettered communication is key.

And like really look into your hearts and ask the question like are there topics that I am afraid to bring up to and speak to about my partner? And the answer is always going to be yes. Like even in our communication, I have to take deep breaths to like bring topics up because I'm nervous about how you're going to receive it. And likewise, like you've shared like in all the ways that like one of the worst ways I've traumatized you is reacting with so much vitriol and anger when you bring up a topic that was against my monogamous beliefs, right?

I shut you down and I shut you down hard because that's not the kind of thing that monogamous couples talk about Right But when we take those when we take those shoulds and should nots off of what we are and are not allowed to communicate about Suddenly, no holds are barred. We get to really relate to each other not as you know boyfriend or girlfriend or fiance or husband, wife, or whatever, but not even as partners, but as human beings.

And it was only after we broke the whole veil of compulsory monogamy that I really truly think I got to appreciate your complete humanity.

And that really is what it boils down to. We do not have a perfect partnership. Frankly, I don't think anybody does. All we have is a system. A system that is going to work for us, regardless of who our partners may be.

I just feel really lucky that I get to experience this with you.

Me:

Can you give like a Cliff's Notes version of that system?

Dan:

Oof, yeesh. okay. It's all about, ultimately, finding ways to not take it personally.

It's all about receiving what your partner is saying, not as an accusation, not as a should or should not, not as an attack, but as information. And here's the crazy bit. Even when your partner, because they're human, no one's gonna communicate perfectly. Even when your partner is coming at you guns blazing, with the should statements, with the judgments, with the really barbed cruel remarks that only someone who knows you and loves you can hurt you with, even in those situations, receiving it as information and not taking it personally and asking, what's really going on?

It's kind of like when you're sitting with your own jealousy, right? Except in this case, you're not really sitting with your own emotion. You're sitting with your partner's emotion. What's really going on?

And what's really nice there is that instead of having to hold your emotions hand, which is figurative, you can literally go and reach out and hold your partner's hand and sit with them. What's really going on? I'm here. I love you. I'm listening. I'm here. And damn it, if that isn't one of the hardest things I've ever had to do, that's just not something that I ever found intuitive. You know how much I struggled with that. You know how many times you sat clutching a pillow, right?

Tears streaming down your face. You know, you barely able to just get the words out. All I really wanted was a hug. After like three and a half hours of intense arguing, that's what it really boiled down to. And I'm sitting there, fists clenched, jaws clenched. All of a sudden I feel like a massive, you know, idiot.

I feel terrible. I still remember how terrible I felt in those situations.

And then all these, you know, logical castles that I built, these magnificent monuments to reason and my rightness and your wrongness and these massive, massive constructs, these impressive things just crumbled to oblivion when I saw you clutching that pillow saying all you really wanted was a -

All this for what? What, just to say that I was right and that you were wrong? What did I actually accomplish? A big fat nothing.

Right? And even then it took me like, what, six years to get that right? Even so, like I struggled.

I don't know that there is a Cliff Notes way to do this, but because I really genuinely mean that. I think that it's because everyone's triggers are going to be so unique to their trauma and their life story that I can't just say, when your partner says X, then you should remember Y and then do Z, because that's going to look so different from human to human to human.

I guess the one piece of universal advice that I can offer is to keep your eyes on the prize. What's the overall objective?

And that should be to understand.

Even when you think you understand, leave room for doubt. Did I really understand? Did I really hit that objective? Do I fully and completely have the picture or is there more information that I could be obtaining? And staying curious about that, knowing that you're not gonna sometimes have resolution that evening or that afternoon or whenever that discussion is or argument or fight is taking place. Sometimes it takes days, weeks, months. Shoot, for us it took years.

Me:

Yeah, the asterisk I would add there is we can make every attempt to understand the other, but a full and complete understanding will not be possible because we cannot see things from their perspective, from their body, from their eyeballs. And so what I can do as humanly as possible, is to check for understanding to the fullest extent that we are willing and available for so that what we are doing is loving and relating and checking for understanding, checking that I want to know more about you.

I cannot know all of you. I cannot understand all of you fully and completely but I want to do what I can to be with you right now and I will understand the wrong parts or I will misunderstand parts that you want me to understand but ultimately I'm going to I'm going to experiment so that when I attempt to understand I get to know more of you and the person that I love 100%.

Dan:

The intentionality is key. I think, actually now that you mention that, I think a lot of what I had done wrong was the reactivity of it, like just waiting for those ruptures to come and then addressing it there, as opposed to being intentional and proactive in our relating. And I think that makes a huge difference. And you're right. It is literally impossible to truly see the world from another person's eyes. You can't. You can only experience the world through your eyes, through your brain. But the intention to try really does matter.

Me:

I think we talked about this briefly last time too, but I mean a year ago you were at a place where you were like, absolutely not. I am wired to be monogamous. And then over the course of like, of course a lot of ruptures and experimentation, you came to a place like a place like today where you're constantly examining the ways you want to relate to me and love me and for us to build our relationship together.

I think a lot of the times, the people who want to open up their marriage, their concern is like, I really, really want this, but I really, really equally doubt that my spouse, my partner will ever be on board with what I want.

And so what are some things that you want to share for those people?

Dan:

That's a tough one. I guess the first thing that you have to do is, I mean, I'm taking this straight out of your playbook, the way you handled that situation with me when we were opening up. There was one thing you said to me that I deeply appreciate, and that is, take your time.

Take your time.

You made it abundantly clear to me that I was not going to have to make a decision under the gun. And that mattered. You were very patient with me. You were very loving. And that was really the thing that I needed to understand what was happening.

Me:

What about like situations where like, because I think, you know, you do, you give me a lot of credit, but I also give you a lot of credit where at some point you were willing.

But I think a lot of us, we can kind of feel very doubtful in the very beginning where we very first bring up the topic and the reaction is so severe and intense. It's like, how could you even think about opening up our marriage? How dare you? Don't ever talk about this ever again, or we're going to get a divorce, or we're going to get separated, I'm going to take the kids, et cetera, et cetera.

It just goes from zero to a hundred. And then the person wanting to open up just kind of completely loses steam almost immediately. And it's really, really, really hard to feel like anything is possible at that point. And so do you have any words for situations like that?

Dan:

Well, a practical thing is to not talk about opening the marriage. A major pain point for a lot of people subscribed to compulsory monogamy is that a lot of their identity, a lot of their sense of self -worth is tied to that family unit, that perception of the perfect family or the way their co -workers are going to look at them, the way their family is going to look at them. The way you did it was, hey Dan, I've discovered that I'm polyamorous.

It's not about opening up a marriage and then forcing me to make a decision about what I want to do. You're sharing your experience and your story and your truth with me. That's a very different thing than, hey, you know, this waffle is really delicious, but you know what? I want to open up our marriage. Those are two very different things. When you're talking about your identity, who you are, what's true for you.

As opposed to what you want out of this marriage. I think it's just a lot easier for people to wrap their heads around. That's the first part. The second part is let's assume for the sake of argument you did do that. That you did say, hey, partner, I didn't have the words for this. I didn't have the information for this. And I discovered that I've always been this. I just didn't have the ability to talk about it, but I am polyamorous. I always have been.

I know we got married and I made vows for a compulsory monogamous marriage. I know I did all these things, but I can't deny the truth that I'm polyamorous. And your partner goes, what? No. You know, everything that you said, right? Then there's another really important thing to consider is it's a brutal utilitarian calculus, but how much of yourself are you willing to deny for the partnership.

You know, I imagine that this is the sort of dilemma that a lot of closeted gay people had to deal with when they were in those perfect nuclear families and then they came out to their spouse that they were gay and then all of a sudden everything kind of fell apart. Everyone took everything personally. Everyone was really upset. I imagine it was really similar to that. And it's not going to be an easy thing to talk about ever. But those people who spoke up and said, hey, honey, I'm gay. I always have been. It doesn't mean I don't love you.

But I created this family, this beautiful family with you. And I got married to you, not because that's necessarily what I wanted, but society coerced me into this. I am gay. And there's gonna be two people, two different types of reactions to that. There's gonna be the, how could you? I'm taking the kids, I'm leaving, you freak of nature, goodbye. And there were lots of those reactions. There was also the, honey, I love you. If we need to separate, we'll separate. I'm not gonna deny your truth.

I accept you and I love you no matter what.

Here's the bad news. If you're coming out to your partner that you're polyamorous, you're taking a gamble. The same gamble, maybe, I don't know in terms of magnitude, I can't speak in comparison, but at least cut from the same cloth as the people who come out to their partners as trans or gay or lesbian or bi.

Me:

I also want to clarify like neither one of us are attempting to equate the poly experience and the queer experience. Yes it's very very different and very very nuanced in art in the differences and there are pockets of polyamory where people attempt to almost use their polyamory to be part of the queer experience and that is not something that we are after. So I want to clarify that. And of course, that doesn't mean that we are perfect either. We're always examining our ignorance in what we don't know about the queer experience as well.

That covers a lot. That covers a lot. You have some amazing questions as usual. I just feel like, I just feel like there's, I feel like maybe this should be like an ongoing thing because you offer so many pearls.

How do you feel about this whole interviewing thing?

Dan:

Let me, let me examine that. I mean, I am flattered. I should say first and foremost, I'm very flattered that you value what I have to say this much. yeah, let me, let me examine that.

Me:

No, no, like I just, I just, I want to know like how you feel about being interviewed because you know, also we were talking about how I, how I feel about being interviewed. Yeah. No, you want me to like actually tell you what it's like to my, okay. My skin's crawling. I already hate the sound of my voice.

Everything I say, I'm like hyperfixating on, like, wait a minute, did I enunciate that syllable wrong? Do I sound like a moron? Just imposter syndrome out the ass. It's, yeah, it's not a very pleasant experience for me. I'm not gonna lie.

Me:

That also reminds me, like, also in opening up the marriage, there's also concern around judgment, right? And I think that's a whole can of worms, but maybe like kind of briefly tell me a little bit about like the concern that you had in the beginning.

Wow like this is so different and what when we transition if we transition at all it's gonna just turn our whole world upside down and now you're sort of at a place where it's like, let it be, let whatever judgment come for us and I'm okay kind of thing. And so tell us a little bit about how you got from there to there.

Dan:

Yeah, I think a big part of it has to do with my career. Right?

Teaching is a very community -based profession. That is, you're in the middle of a massive rumor mill at all times. Teachers talk about other teachers. Teachers talk with the community about other teachers. The community will talk with the community about other teachers.

Like, it's just an ongoing whirlpool of gossip and intrigue. And that's just, you know, that's just part of the job when you're networked in a community, when it really does take a village to make sure every student receives the attention and care that they need to be successful. That's just one of the byproducts is that people talk and that a big part of your career is the reputation that you've staked out in your school and in your community.

I had created an image that I had jealously guarded in my community, sort of like the low -key can't find anything that's major to get upset about. Like, you know, another added layer of this is that I'm a male teaching at the elementary school level. There's already a lot of stigma associated with that. I've every year had at least one or two female students removed from my class at parent request because they're uncomfortable with the idea of a male teacher. So I'm already stigmatized to begin with.

And in addition to that, the community that I'm in is fairly wealthy and by virtue, you know, a little more, I guess, leaning on the conservative side of things. Even in, you know, one of the bluest states in the union and one of the bluest counties in the state, a lot of the community members will skew either moderate, liberal, or just straight up like conservative, right?

So in that kind of a setting, that’s where there's already a little bit of like, you know, lack of safety, I was so deeply afraid of my hard work kind of going for naught. Because I worked really hard crafting that image for myself.

And at some point, you know, there was this revelation I had where it's like, okay, I have all these people who are chummy with me in the building. A good, like, I want to say 70 % of them are people I make small talk with that I really don't particularly, not that I dislike them, but it's not like I'm crazy to spend time with them. Right. And if those people decide that I'm not cool anymore.

So fucking what? And if those people who I'm not super like stoked to make small talk about suddenly stop making small talk with me, well, my inner introvert rejoices at that thought, right? So it occurred to me that, yeah, people are always going to judge. They're going to judge me for being male. They're going to judge me for being polyamorous. They're going to judge me no matter what I do.

Me:

For being Asian.

Dan:

No doubt. No doubt. So like why bother crafting an image and working so painstaking to create an image that necessarily isn't even you, right? There is this Mr. Han persona that I had kind of cultivated to what end? I don't know anymore. So when I stopped doing that and then the the super duper conservative people, you know, they were giving me side eyes or whatever.

The world kept turning. The world kept turning. At this point, I'm pretty sure, like I wanna say like 85 % sure that the community has some inkling that I'm not like, you know, completely monogamous, but they're like, whatever, my kid loves him. So, you know, I don't really fucking care what he does with his life. As long as he's my kid's teacher, I'm fine. You know? Because the people that appreciate me.

And the things that make me a good instructor, the people who appreciate me and my humanity are going to, they're going to appreciate me no matter what I am. And that ended up being true. My closest friends, my colleagues that, you know, that I spent, like instead of getting like copies done, I'll like pop in their room and have a conversation with them. You know, you have those colleagues, your teacher besties, they're still my teacher besties. That didn't change.

And you know, they, they, they didn't even bat an eye at my polyamory. They're like, the only thing they asked me, I was like, dude, how do you have the time and energy for this? That's the only question they ask all the time. Wait, how many partners are you at now? You know, that's like, it's just, it was, it was so wild to me that I was worried about losing them when they were the people that had, I should have had the least amount of concern around. You know? How does it feel knowing that and witnessing and embodying the fact that the more you are yourself, the closer it brings your people to you. It feels... nice. I think to bring it full circle, it has a lot to do with seeing your self -worth. Whereas before I was like, why would anyone like me? They like Mr. Han. They don't like me.

They like the teacher, this seven foot tall bronze statue of Mr. Han waving a meter stick around. That's the person they like, not me. But then it turns out it was me all along. That this persona I was creating that was not me, some caricature of me, was not what they were after at all in the first place. It validates who I am and what I'm worth and it feels really nice.

Me:

Thank you for sharing that.

Dan:

Well, thank you for asking. OK, that is that really is a lot. I thank you for listening to us chat.

And we talked about jealousy, some of the most common issues around jealousy and opening up our marriage. And also we talked about how we use conflict to get closer to each other throughout the opening. And even now, like even now we were like even more skilled at it, right? And how we experience judgment. And so we did all of this by ourselves. We did get help from Nick and Millie. Their handle is decolonizing.love on IG. But really, we didn't necessarily have a community.

We maybe went to like individuals and we went to like therapy for like sporadic support. But we didn't have a community which we craved so much. And that is why I created the opener where we actually get to talk about these things in community with people who are going through something very similar.

And of course, not everybody's experience is the same, but as human beings connecting with each other, we can resonate at the human level and we talk about scenarios that are specific to you and how we can experience those really, really challenging parts of your humanity that are very specific to what you are going through right now. And that is the whole purpose of the opener. It's a Discord server where I offer insight independently and I also offer insight upon request. And we also have impromptu life calls and they happen like at least like once a week.

And really as many times as we need. And so it's ongoing, it's lifetime access. Right now at the time of this recording, it's only $100 for lifetime access. And this is the kind of community that I wish we had over the past year. And now that we feel like we have gotten to a place where we feel like a sustainable, I feel like I now have capacity to build community together with other people who want to continue opening with us sustainably.

And so if that is something that you're interested in and you want to be part of the movement, you can join at angela-han.com/opener, or just send me a message if you're not sure if you might belong, because this is this, this is a big project and you want to know if this is the right fit for you. Just send me a message on Instagram or LinkedIn or wherever you follow me. Any last words Dan?

Dan:

Wow. Yeah shout out to Nick and Millie for real. They're phenomenal human beings. I can't you know sing their praises loudly enough. Yeah community matters. It really does. Like feeling alone was probably the worst feeling early on. Feeling so unsure of who my allies were, who my people were, that feeling sucked. And having community is a major, major part of being able to work through this. So yes, absolutely.

Me:

All right. That's it for today. Thank you so much for listening in, tuning in. I'll talk to you later.